Welcome to Built by Margin, the podcast where strategy meets the spreadsheet. I'm your host, Laurie Chen, fractional CFO and tax strategist, here to help you make smarter financial decisions, build a profitable business, and keep more of what you earn. Let's dive into the numbers that actually move the needle. Today, we have the amazing Kelsey Daingerfield with us. She is a powerhouse in operations, a fractional COO, and a true advocate for business growth and scaling done right. Kelsey, thank you so much for Excited to have you on the show. For anyone who's not familiar with you yet, can you share a little bit about your background and what you do as Yeah, so I think my story is very similar to a lot of people out there. It's not like a straight line. It's a squiggle. I've worked across many, many industries from aerospace and medical manufacturing, sales and retail, running a Starbucks to being in higher ed. All over the place, different industries, but they all had a very common thread of being involved in operations, change management and really helping fix things, break down the silos and help us work smarter, not harder and just simplify how we're actually doing things because it doesn't have to be that difficult. And so, um, over the years, I really just started asking more questions of like, where does it feel aligned? And, um, when I was in higher ed before I left, um, I kept finding that I was fixing our systems. I was fixing the way that we, our marketing team had their input process and I wasn't even in marketing. And then I would fix, um, how our corporate scholarships would come in to admissions and help us figuring out the routes and the processes. And it just always felt so fun, like a big puzzle piece, helping people work together and just really get our operations in order. And so then this virtual integrator came out of it. I was doing corporate work. Now I do corporate consulting. So I still work in tech, but in the IT side and help with system implementations and project oversight and team management. But now I'm helping small to medium businesses get themselves into a better place. And it could be simplifying our systems because I don't know about you, but when you start a business, you kind of get the, I need that, I need that, I need that project management tool because my coach told me or this person I follow. And so now I help people just reel it in, get focused, put a strategy in place, get our operations and our processes moving along. So everything talks nicely so that we can grow Absolutely. Is there any specific industry that you work I'm generalized. For me, it's more so is my background is in project management and Lean Six Sigma. And to me, everything is an assembly line. And I find that because my background is so versed in different industries, I've been able to apply essentially the assembly line approach to everything. Everybody has a sales process. Everybody has a manufacturing process. Whether you're manufacturing a product, you're making a cup of coffee, you're getting somebody enrolled in a university, there's still a process you have to follow. And so for me, it's being able to come into the business and help figure out where those gaps are. So it's really more helping Many industries, and it's really about the partnership and the people that I'm working with is where I find that it works best. So working with people that aren't afraid of change, aren't afraid and understand the value of improving our systems. So less I love that approach, especially in today's world where so many businesses are in transition, whether that's through growth or just trying to build a solid foundation. What should a business owner think about bringing on That's a great question. I actually get asked different versions of that. I think Before you bring on a fractional COO, I would assess what your current team is. Because I find that a lot of people will jump to immediately saying, I need a fractional. But it's like, let's see what our baseline is first, guys. Who do we have doing what? Is it we need somebody to help manage now with getting the strategy out? Or is it we need to clarify things? And I think once you know that you have all the people in the right places, and you wanna scale and you wanna grow, but you as the owner can't truly do that oversight anymore, and you need that right-hand person, that's when you bring in the fractional. That's when you bring in the operations person because they can help see those gaps. You're a partner. And that's one thing I like to make sure I always emphasize is, You guys are helping fill some of the weaknesses as the fractional COO to the owner, but you also have to make sure that you can interpret what they're seeing. And that's what I think is part of my job is being an interpreter of your vision. What are we trying to achieve here? And when you know you're at that level of scalability and you don't want to be fully integrated into the business anymore, but you still want to know everything's good, that's when you bring in the fractional. From a dollar standpoint, I would say starting at 300K. If you're hitting that, then it's time to bring some additional That makes a lot of sense. Let's talk about intersection of operations and finance. So fractional COO, fractional CFO, that's what I do. Can you talk a little bit about how you help clients build their net profit or gross margin while growing? Is that something that you touch on? I actually don't touch too much on that. So I would love to hear your opinion. Mine is right now, it tends to blend into the change management aspect of the businesses and helping organize organize the structure of the business to get the operations and the systems in place. So I'm going to actually turn it back to you. I would love to hear what you've So yeah, this is a good question because I'm currently working with a client that's doing over $10 million in annual revenue or projected to hit $10 million in revenue by end of the year. They're a manufacturing company, very high volume, working with their CEO and director of operations, essentially their COO. A big piece is the operations and the finance have to talk to each other in order to improve systems and processes. The biggest pain point for this company is that they didn't have financial visibility and transparency more so into their forecasting, their future financials, their cash flow, Um, the impact of their, of their strategic financial decisions. So that's, that's the clarity that I'm bringing in them by setting up a system to tell them, Hey, this is what, this is what you're heading towards from a number standpoint. And then where operations come in, and which is critical, is that they're telling me, okay, this is the type of reporting, this is the processes that we currently have set up, and that informs the conversation so much Yep. Especially if you're looking to invest in anything and you're trying to, like if, depending on the business, your operations, if you have to go buy new equipment, invest in new systems, tech, All that stuff, understanding the financials, you need Exactly. And I talked a lot about the forecasting and future-looking financials, but actually there's processes that are currently in place with their accounting system that need to be cleaned up or that need to be improved, right? There's a lot of bottlenecks in that area and having the operations team in place helps to identify those areas where they can actually make changes that will lead to more accurate historical Yeah. It's very interesting how it's so intertwined. I remember one of my previous employers, we didn't even have a forecasting tool. We had a spreadsheet and everything lived inside of a spreadsheet. from like a process and the upside, we were like, hey, you know, we really need to, while this works, it's not streamlining. We're wasting time here. We're spending hours getting a spreadsheet updated that gets revised and revised. And you don't know where the changes were from five weeks ago. And even just getting a simple tool in place to help optimize the way the team works, the way the data's coming in and really just, It just blends. There's so much overlapping in all the different areas. And I Yeah. What systems or tools are you currently utilizing a Right now, a lot of my clients are Keeping it simple, Google Suites, or Google Suites, sorry, it's not multiples, QuickBooks, or something like Square, or I have a couple that have Stripe. I don't really like Stripe. So that's for managing like the money in the books. We have Salesforce for some of our tech systems for managing the backend, or like the client funnels, depending on which aspect of Salesforce. From a marketing communication tool, we have Flowdesk. We have MailChimp. I always want to call it SurveyMonkey. I know they're not the same. But those are some of the bigger tools. And then, of course, leveraging AI now. We have a lot of people that are trying to figure out how we can incorporate different tools based on their system. So if they're Microsoft suite, what can we leverage that can be safe within Microsoft, same with Google, and then also the security of it too. But those are just kind I use ChatGPT. For myself, I have the business version. I like that you can select the privacy settings and you can set it up for your team too so that your team can have access to these GPTs that are private. I am using Claude as well. I like to use ChatGPT as my primary. And then when I'm working on content and really writing things out and wordsmithing, copywriting, I move to Claude. I just helped a client put together a communication and outreach plan. And the reason why kind of that blend over at the marketing side when it comes to operations was because we needed to come up with a calendar and an outline for what we need to do establish from a sales process. And it was like, okay, what are the checks? What do we have in place to make sure every single month we have our stuff queued up? So we have a, do we have coffee? Do we have this? And creating those checks and routines for the team. So we use Cloud to really refine it. So those are my two primaries. What I use ChatGPT business version. I haven't used Cloud yet, but I certainly I would like to try it. And so it sounds Yeah, it's really nice, especially, you know, the prompts really do make a difference, telling it like who it is, what hat to put on. Depending on what it is, I actually tell it a lot to like, put on your Dan Martell hat, put on your Gary V hat. We want to be direct in this communication. How can we wordsmith this? If it's really techie, I'll be like, hey, talk to them like they're a fourth grader. Let's make this digestible because it's also important to know your audience, which I think in operations is, especially in finance, it's so important because If you aren't talking to the leadership team, there's one way you're communicating. Or if you were talking to like a manager, it's a different way of communicating because they need different details. So sometimes I like to leverage those tools to help me adapt to Yeah, absolutely. I love how you mentioned putting on the Dan Martell hat, like making it a specific voice, right? I also like using private GPTs, customized GPTs. That has been super helpful. So like branding content, as well as like, for me, tax and financial strategy. There's some custom GPTs that I use. But then, yeah, of course, just the regular business chat GPT has been awesome. And right now we're on version 5.0, which has been Do you find that with your area, there anything, I'm trying to think of like how to ask this. So I know with like, I can ask it operational questions, systems processes, but your stuff is tied financials to sometimes to regulations, laws, things like that. Do you ever find that you have to double check the things you're Getting out of chat GPT or do you now over time? It's more. Hey, Yes, you do need to double check because I have heard from close colleagues that chat GPT is not always accurate or truthful. I use it generally as like more of a general research tool, so I don't really, it's more for informing my like general framework. I don't use it specifically like to cite anything, because I prefer to still do things without AI. But I do use AI. It's more just for research. And yes, if there's legal regulatory requirements, then I would probably want to double check. But I don't have to do that a whole lot, just because I don't use that for that purpose. And then also, when we're talking about financial strategy, a common objection I get from potential clients Our prospects is, you know, why can't I just use chat to BT to, to build my financial projections, financial model. And I'm like, that's not a good idea because, because, you know, you, you need a person with professional experience and judgment to tell you like what you should be doing. Like, yeah, you can come up with numbers, just like maybe very generic numbers, but you can't really inform strategy or growth by asking chat to be, to come up the financial model for you. Um, like it's just not, it's you get what you pay for. So if you're paying what, $21 a month for chat, GBT, you're going to get $21 a month worth of financial model. Uh, pay a fractional CFO, you know, a thousand dollars plus for a model or recurring, then you're going to get much better experience Yep, 100% agree with that. I've had people be like, well, why can't I just have ChatGPT build me out like my roadmap? I'm like, that's great. You can, but you need a human to help you implement it and understand the people that you're working with and the culture of it all. It's not just, hey, print this out and go do this. You're still gonna need to humanize it because at the end of the day, that matters, especially like what you're saying with finance. What came to mind when you were saying that is, would I trust ChatGPT to plan out my investment strategy for my retirement? Or would I want somebody to know a little bit about me and my personal history and where I want to go? I'd want the person, I'd want the human in there too. So yeah, you're right, $21 a month Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, AI, you know, you have to be careful with AI when it comes to operations and finance, because at the end of the day, you need a person with judgment and experience to validate what chatGBT is spitting out. Because as we know, chatGBT is not 100% accurate. You know, it will even tell you sometimes that it's not accurate or, you know, so it's just something to be aware Yep, agreed. I think it's definitely a tool to help you work faster and get you more information to look through yourself. Definitely use it as a tool, but not your end-all be-all. Yeah. So let's move on to talking about risk and uncertainty, a topic that's close to my heart since I'm writing a book about risk and uncertainty. And you as a fractional COO, like you're assessing risks like all the time with your clients, right? What's your framework for assessing the biggest risks that organization faces? What are common blind spots that you see founders making when it comes to operational or strategic risks? As of late, I don't know if it's just the time of the year or what, but I've been finding the risk is in the human risk, the risk and the turnover of between I'm trying to figure out the right words to say it. It's almost like there's the divide between the founder and the owner and their expectation of what's taking place. And then the people that are on the front line that are doing the work that have a different understanding of what's getting done. And honestly, I think sometimes it goes like this, but right now I've had this very similar conversation with three clients in the past two weeks of, hey, you're thinking these things are taking place, but it's not aligning and that's a risk because I mean, you don't know what this, like there's a discrepancy here. There's a communication gap that's happening and things are kind of falling through the cracks and it could be silos, it could be communications, what have you. And I find, yes, there are other things in operations that have risk. Your systems could break, you could have stuff that's outdated, certifications that are going. or systems are going to an end of life. But for me, as of late, it's really been the connection between the areas and the business. Because as you grow, you need to keep that communication, you need to keep the pulse on the different departments. And if you're not being diligent about that, Do you use any formal decision-making frameworks when helping your it's going to sound very like really, but for me it's what feels forced what feels flow when you're working on something and you're trying to come up with your decision when you come to the solution does it feel like a this feels right or does it feel like you're. forcing something into place. Like you're trying to get that puzzle piece that doesn't actually fit into that location, into that location. And it sounds very rudimentary, but I think sometimes that's what we need. It's that gut check. It's that decision. How are you feeling with it? And it's force versus flow. So when you're working through your challenges in the business, when you're assessing different things, how does this feel? Does it feel like it should be the right thing? Or does it feel like you're forcing it through because you think it might be the right thing? there's some resistance. What is that resistance and why? So that's I like that approach. That's really interesting. How do you measure the How do I measure the success of a risky decision? After the fact, did it work? If it didn't, why? Is it something that we can improve upon or it just really was not, it didn't work? I don't have the best answer for that one. Because for me, it's always trial and error. There's going to be a risk associated to everything that you do. Just depends on how much of a risk it is. Is it a huge financial impact risk? Is it like, hey, we tried it. It didn't work. Let's go back to square one So your thoughts? Well, when you talk about force versus flow, You're kind of talking more about the emotional side of risk, right? Like it's more about your emotions than is about your logic at that point. And like most of our decisions, we're taught to view it from a logical standpoint, right? Like upsides versus downsides, return on investment. But force versus flow is actually a very emotional side of the equation. wouldn't Yeah, I think it definitely pulls more to that. And I think that's more of my leadership style and the way that I manage the operations, because I find operations and it can go so many different ways. But for me, I always find it ties back into the human aspect to that change management aspect. Because if you're trying to improve ops and systems, there's always this tie in because we're human and there's stuff happening here. And so the force versus flow, is more emotional, but it, it ties into like financial decision making too, because there's been a time where it's, I am personally being like, I should, I feel like I should be investing in this coach in this program, because I think it's going to help me get more ROI on my business and level up and really just go for it. And Then I have that, okay, well, when I take a minute, because I'm a high S, high C, when you do like a desk profile, I'm like, okay, I need to think, I need to analyze, take a breather, take a moment. And for me, it's what is the ROI from a financial standpoint? Do I see this helping me hit my goals and get to that next level? But I also assess How is this gonna feel? Is this going to be a time suck for me? Is this going to feel forced where I'm gonna be going and doing these things because I have to versus I want to? Because if you have to do something, you're not gonna give it the same attention and love and just push that you would if it's something you wanna do. So definitely tie it Yeah, good point. So yeah, my thoughts on measuring success of a race to decision. Is basically if. If the decision leads you to either the best version of yourself or your best future, then the the outcome will be worth it. Worth Yeah, it's something that I really thought a lot about and also just in my experience of building my own business, entrepreneurship. It's been almost six years now that I've had my company. So I've worked with a lot of startups and founders and well, much more well-established multimillion dollar companies. Just kind of understanding people's psyche and also I've been in a lot of coaching programs like yourself, you know, like with Dan Martell's group and other groups that I've been in, you know, the coaching is like, you know, they're not cheap programs are pretty expensive and they're there to like get you like a quantitative ROI, but actually I find that most people. like founders like ourselves, like we pay because it's about the qualitative ROI. It's like, you know, what intangible benefits can I gain from this experience? You know, who can I meet through this experience? You know, just the fact of being in a room with other successful business owners, entrepreneurs, founders, that raises your game and helps you think in a different way, like the whole Martel mindset has has definitely changed me over the last eight months. Um, so those are all like qualitative ROIs. And so, you know, if you measure success by the best return, um, on investment, it's about the best version of yourself, the 10.0 version, which Dan calls it, um, or it's about your best possible future. Like what does that lead you into your ideal life in Yeah, and it's being defining, like what is that risk to you? Is it financial? Is it how you're saying qualitative versus quantitative? Like what are you looking at and how are you assessing it? Just like with success, like how do you know when you're successful? How do you define it? And what does that mean to you? And I like your Martel mindset, because I look at it as borrowing like Dan's confidence. And I went into the program being like, this is an investment, but like, how am I gonna measure success? Yes, is it getting clients out of the program? Of course, that's always a success. But like you're mentioning, like the Martel mindset, I found that like, I have leveled up my expectations. And I have really started to be like, trusting my gut and understanding myself further. And I think as a business owner, you have that's required as Yeah. Absolutely. What would be the biggest risk that you've taken in your business or Quitting my job and doing this. I went all in on my business two years ago. I had a very safe job. I was making like high five figures, like right in the middle almost. And I had very good medical benefits. I worked in university, so I was able to get my master's and my MBA and do all these, it was a very safe job. And it just didn't align anymore. It just didn't feel right in taking the risk and going all in on my business. I did have an approach. I am not somebody who's just gonna like, be like, yeah, let's go. I'm like, I have a mortgage, I have daycare, I can't just go after it. So I had a plan in place. And then I left my job March 3rd. I had enough money saved up until like July to make it work. So we weren't in the red in our family. And by mid May, I was like, Oh, no, I think we made it work. And two years later, I wouldn't go back, I wouldn't change it for the world. So I would say that was my biggest, like, Absolutely, would you say so then you'd say it was more about becoming the best version of yourself than it was about making more money when you made 100% it was stepping into that next level. It was just that like, okay, like, let's go be that boss. Let's go make the world and the life that we want. People say you can't have your cake and eat it too, and And then so now two years later, would you say, how would you rate both your quantitative and your qualitative return I surpassed my income within 13 months, I almost doubled it and actually I think I know I doubled my income within 13 months of leaving my job, I have. work less, traveled more, been home with my family. So like I have the financial safety stability that I was terrified of leaving. And I have more of a life and I find that I have a better blend between the two. I'm excited to go to work. I'm excited to come home, hang out and see my kids and spend time with them. So they both just. They Yeah, that's awesome. It's a proof of the thesis that I've been building. Yes. Yeah, that's awesome. What is one principle on risk taking that you would If you're gonna go and take a risk on something and you're, it's, Again, it comes back to that self-assessment, self-reflection. And it feels like a risk, it smells like a risk, it looks and tastes like a risk. Is it a risky because it's that push to, like you were saying, level yourself up to step into that next level? Or is it something that it doesn't feel like it? it's gonna work out and then there's a reason behind it. So to me, it's that gut check and the mental check of where is this falling on your radar? So I like to tell people, check in with your gut, check in with your mind. If It does, I think your focus is more on the emotional impact. of the risk and the decision. So I think that's a very valid way to look at things because, you know, in my In my research, and I'm basically saying it's not about logic, you know, essentially, it's not always about logic, it's about like, you knew, you knew that you weren't meant to be in corporate, you know, and that's why you left your cushy job to start your own business. And now you have like all this much more freedom, much more learning opportunities, growth opportunities as a result of being a an owner in your business and be able to like shape the direction of your business. It wasn't exactly logical to be leaving your job, your stable income, especially when you have kids and bills to pay and all that. It's very hard for people making that jump because they're like, I can't let go of my income because it's not logical. Yeah, when is the who's going to pay my bills, you know, but I think it's actually when you make the decision, you make that jump, and you're committed to being that best version, and you're committed to your best possible future, then it will come, it will come and the universe will self correct and adjust to your desires, you know, There's this quote that's used a lot in everything, like basically almost every book I've read. It's like, the universe conspires to get you what you want. And that's essentially what happens in life when you make those risky decisions. Now, I'm not saying that there's not negative consequences. There are negative consequences to certain decisions, you know? Oh, yeah. But, you know, especially if you're doing something unethical, right? But I think if we're talking about the decision that leads you to the best version of yourself and your best possible future, and you stay within that container, then I agree because it can't always be logical. Not everything can come down to a balance. Sometimes we just have to make the decision, just go all in and do it. I looked at it as when I made the transition, I was like, Okay, what happens if I fail? Like, what happens? And it was like, if I fail, I can always go back to corporate and try again, if I want, or I can go into a different idea. Like there's, doesn't mean that the world stops. It means, okay, we're going to pivot. And Yeah, and especially for, you know, those of us that have over 10 years of experience in our field, you know, you should feel like you have a safety net, you know, to, to go back and to find another position within your field, like you have all that experience. If you don't have 10 years experience, if you're more like, you know, just starting out the three or five year mark, well, then that just means you have more opportunities to pivot into something completely different. Exactly. And you know what? If you have to take a step back, you take a step back. Like I remember when I was, we lived in New Jersey and moved to Michigan. At the time in New Jersey, I managed a Starbucks and we were doing great. I couldn't transfer because they didn't have a store available. And they were like, you can either start over or we can't transfer you. And I was like, you know what? I'm going to go find a new job. And I became an admin at a university. And I looked at that, I'm like, this is a stepping stone. this is a way in to go to school again and to find another opportunity that's in my realm of interest. And you know what, that was the best pivot I could ever have asked for. So I look at it as like, it just opens another door. Another squiggle, like I Yeah, absolutely. So like with new clients that you get, are you simply getting them through referral or Uh, referral, I would say about 85% of my clients are referral. The rest are meeting in person at networking just or doing like podcasts and working with people this way. So Yeah. For me, it's been about 50, 50 referral, 50% through. marketing initiatives. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah, I've been on LinkedIn for five or six years, and that's where I meet a lot of new clients. But then I just got on Instagram about eight months ago, same time that I started with Dan's program. And Instagram's been cool because it's like, oh, okay, there's like, it's a much more visual platform where you can see you know what what uh other people are doing and you know potential clients can reach out um so i i actually really like the instagram platform um for that reason uh but of course linkedin is like more of my bread and butter because a lot of you know uh business owners are are on linkedin every day you know keeping up with the news and all of that um but yeah it's That's cool. LinkedIn, I post on, but I haven't figured out exactly how to work yet. So I'm going to have to go creep your profile and see what you're doing over One last question before we wrap up. What is I'm going to sound like such a nerd, but there's two. One is Who Not How. Yeah, that one Benjamin Hardy. Yep. The who not how book really I did Dan Martell's buy back your time. And then I found myself being like, okay, these are really cool. Like I have all these ideas. Like, how do I do it? And then I read that book. And I was like, you know what? Yeah, that's my approach. Who not how? Because as we get older, and as we learn, it's about asking, who can I who can I ask who knows better than me? And there's nothing wrong with that. So who, What about you? And then the second book was buy back your time. Yeah. Okay. Um, yeah, I, I'm a big fan of Benjamin Hardy books. Um, I actually just got his newest one that just came out the science of scaling. Ooh, I'm going to have to write that one down. Okay. Definitely get that. Cause it just came out. Um, and I'm halfway through already. So, okay. Yeah. Uh, I like all of Hardy's books. Um, And then, yeah, definitely buy back your time. Dan is currently working on a book right now. So interested to see what he writes about next. For me, gosh, it's hard because I always have a million books going on at the same time. I'm like a multitasker when it comes to reading. Oh, yeah, I get that. I mean, I would say right now it's the science of scaling with the party is pretty good. Um, he's got some good research in there and talks about business growth, um, in like, uh, decisions. Um, so yeah, I would say that one right now. And then, um, I'm rereading some of the classic books, um, like Simon Sinek, Adam Grant, Brene Brown, just to kind of get into like the writer's psyche. So yeah, right now I'm reading Start With Why, which is a classic. It's like 15 year anniversary this year. Give and take with Adam Grant. And then Brene Brown, you know, obviously has a lot about shame. Oh, one book that I recently read that was pretty impactful was Robin Sharma's about happiness and wealth. I don't remember the exact name of the book, but it was good because he Okay, I'm gonna write that one down too. I almost forgot, I just started one. It's called, I had to pull it up, Be the Unicorn. And it is 12 data-driven habits that separate the best leaders. And it talks about the power of technology and emotional intelligence and how to leverage the tools. Because like we were saying earlier, which aligns so much with our conversation of like how you can't use AI to do everything. You still need a human. And it talks about leveraging tools. It's really cool. It's, who wrote it? Oh, sorry. I'm on my Kindle on my phone and I never know how to use it. William Vanderbloom and John Maxwell. I believe he was on it too. Yep. Cool. So Robin Sharma, it was The Wealth Money Can't Buy. That just came out last year. Okay. Yeah, when I was talking about that, I was thinking of this other book called The Five Types of Wealth, and it's by Sahil Bloom, and that's also a bestseller book. So I think they have pretty similar themes of what are the intangible benefits of life outside of Yeah. It's so important because everybody I mean like I know growing up it was always like a number a number a number now it's like this doesn't have to be a number. There's more to it than just being like yeah like because you're always going to be going after like okay I make 500 grand a year great what's next? It's like okay I make this and I have this Yeah so how can people find you and Um, Instagram. So I'm on Instagram. I have LinkedIn, but I'm more active on Instagram and it's just at Kelsey Daingerfield and it's K E L S E Y E A I N G E R F I E L D very long name. So just be warned, but, um, that's the best way. Cause I love to ask people questions and we ended up getting into the voice note conversations, and then you can really learn somebody that Yeah, awesome. Well, we're definitely going to link everything in the show notes so that people can connect with you on both Instagram and LinkedIn. Kelsey, thank you so much for being here and sharing your expertise. Really enjoyed our conversation and thank you everyone for tuning in to another episode of Built by Margin. Don't forget to subscribe and share. Until next time, keep building your business with intention and margin. Thanks for tuning in to Built by Margin. If you're ready to turn insights into income, subscribe and join me each week as we break down the numbers behind smart business growth. I'm